Busted Knees & Pretty Trees Podcast
Welcome to Busted Knees and Pretty Trees, the podcast where the trail dust never settles! Hosted by Travy J, Brad, and Paddy – three outdoorsmen with a passion for all things wild – we dive deep into the world of nature, backcountry adventure, and wilderness living.
Whether you're a seasoned hiker, curious birder, backcountry hunter, weekend canoe tripper, or just someone who finds peace under an open sky, this podcast is your campfire conversation. Each season, we talk gear, share stories, swap survival tips, and celebrate the beauty and challenges of spending time in the great outdoors.
We also sit down with fascinating guests from all walks of life – conservationists, wildlife experts, guides, and everyday folks who have chosen to make nature a central part of their lives. Together, we explore how they connect with the wild and what they're doing to protect it for future generations.
If you love the crunch of leaves underfoot, the call of a loon at dawn, or the satisfaction of sore legs after a long day on the trail, then you're in the right place.
Busted Knees and Pretty Trees – where passion for the wild runs deep, and the stories are as real as the wilderness.
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Busted Knees & Pretty Trees Podcast
Ep. 76 - Hammocks Here! We Talkin Hammocks Here!
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This week on Busted Knees and Pretty Trees, we’re hanging out… literally.
We’re diving headfirst into the world of hammocks — gathered ends, bridge hammocks, straps, underquilts, bug nets, tarp setups, and all the comfort (or chaos) that comes with sleeping between two trees.
Is hammock camping better than tent life?
What gear is worth it?
What rookie mistakes should you avoid?
Whether you’re a seasoned tree-swinging pro or hammock-curious and still sleeping on the ground, this episode has everything you need to elevate your camp game.
Kick back, clip in, and sway with us — it’s time to talk all things hammocks.
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Hello! Welcome to Busted Knees and Pretty Trees, an easy-going show inspired by sunlight, curiosity, and a presence in the wild. And it's all expertly hosted by some fellows who are anything but experts. What the hell? But we are very aware because the more we explore, the more we find to explore. Not only is this show a vessel for us to explore the outside when we're stuck inside, we ultimately want busted knees and pretty trees to spark curiosity in you, our listeners, and inspire you to go on your own adventures. Our interest lies in nature, but also in all of the cool stuff you can throw in a hiking pack and carry with you on your travels. We've certainly covered the basics on previous episodes, so take a look at the backlog for our discussions on backpacking and other outdoor gear. We haven't had a gear episode in a while, so let's find a couple trees spaced real nice and have a chat about camp hammocks. So hang around for a new gear episode. Let's go. We're back. I am Travis White, board game master. That man over there giggling, shades on, seat back, feet out the window, sig dangling, cool as a cucumber in any board game trail challenge situation, fully loaded on stoke, without a care in the world. Bradley Greer. Fully stoked. Fully stoked. Max Stoked. Stoke.
SPEAKER_00You were maxed. He had so much stoke, he had to start dumping it off the head. Yeah, yeah. I feel like that carried over into your real life because you walked in here kind of dancing to the MJ. You made some jokes. Like I was like, damn, Brad's rave for him tonight, huh? I kicked he pulled out. I kicked the MJ. I kicked. Like not big. So he caught everyone saw it or both of us.
SPEAKER_01Like a whip. Yeah, dude, Brad. You coming in here with that Stokes, bro. Oh yeah. And that man there in the driver's seat, unkempt, shabby, sprinkled with forest debris, arrow in his butt, but he's got a twinkle in his eye, and stoked to high heaven because he's cruising with the boys back home towards a hot shower. Patty Richardson. Yeah, I am. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, that first hot shower after trail. I kind of want that right now. I stoked you up for this episode. Dude, I am stoked. I gave you plus Max Stoke. 50. 50 plus Stoke. I'm going. Oh, 111? You gave me 100. I'm at 111. I mean, you sound like you're 111 right now.
SPEAKER_01I'm jazzed up, dude.
SPEAKER_00This is vacation day. This is an episode before we take off. Like daddy couldn't be any hair. Oh yeah. You're going to Charleston. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Brad's going to Costa Rica. Yeah. West Coast to East Coast. Let's go. We need a name for it. Brad's Bird Bonanza Costa Rica edition.
SPEAKER_00I wonder if there was a yeah. Brad Bird's birding. That sounds good.
SPEAKER_02I did have to promise it's it's not all about birding.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you had you're going.
SPEAKER_02Make a promise in writing or something. Well, I'm not the only one on this trip.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I understand. And that's nice. I'm I'm glad for you. We'll see how that works out. I told Ashley and her dad and Sebastian uh last night or the night before that I need everybody to keep eyes on me because I'm probably gonna be looking through my lens more than I am what's around me. Oh yeah so I plan on running into a few trees, uh sides of buildings, whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_02But that's one thing Sarah is very good at. Yeah. I'm about to step in a pile of poop on the trail. Yeah. Everything great. Like you gotta have a good sidekick to keep it. It's a spot.
SPEAKER_01She's got she's looking out where your feet are going to.
SPEAKER_02She's looking at the ground, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh she's almost like a rock out. Your eyes are up. Yeah. I'm not I'm not watching it. She's just looking at your feet. Well, I'm not watching her. Dude, uh terrible.
SPEAKER_00Whatever.
SPEAKER_02I went it's vacation week. The season has started. Yes, it has. The season has begun.
SPEAKER_00It has, because shortly after this, it's the burning festivals.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00I mean, let's go.
SPEAKER_02Shortly after that is the kayaking trip. Kayak trip, hundreds of miles. Is maybe Shenandoah.
SPEAKER_01Maybe, but it's ramping up fast. Yesterday we had a freaking amazing day. Yeah. And then today it's Patrick. He's got his arms crossed because he's freezing. Yeah. Uh, we're back down into the 30s. I know, bummer, but I think it's about the end of it. So it's yeah. Whatever. It's time to get anyway.
SPEAKER_00What's your name guy talking? My name guy talking. You didn't introduce yourself. Did I not? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I said I was Travis the board game master. Oh, you are Travis the Board Game Master. Very uh beginning. Oh introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Hey, there's the News Panther. Yet a fitting intro, Travis, in our little discussion because you guys didn't know this, but uh this week's News Panther is almost like a spring PSA on getting out there in the southwest. Public service announcements. This one is a shout out for Patty and his folk for when he goes to the desert eventually. Woop woo like he wants to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You guys are coming with me. I don't care what you say. Yeah. Yeah. I'll go with you.
SPEAKER_02I do want to say that sometimes when looking for uh me and Walt, we're out there, we're boots on the ground looking for stories to tell everybody. Sometimes we come across some weird stuff. Like we've given SF Gate a lot of love. Yeah. They have a lot of great articles. But I there was this one article that caught my attention. At first, I sent it for you guys, sent it to you guys to look at, and then but then I deleted it because I wanted to talk about it on here.
SPEAKER_01Oh, is that what that was?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And this was like, yeah, a couple hours ago. And so the headline said, I tried living the Park Ranger fantasy and spent most of it picking up garbage. So that was like the headline. So I thought, hmm. Interesting. That could be a good story to talk about and to learn about. And so I just I get into it, I start reading it. Like we kind of read through most of it. And it turns out it was somebody that played a video game of becoming a park ranger. And like the game kept cooked up and they got trash to go pick up. But but that was why the hell was there an article about that? Was it a good article? No, it was dumb.
SPEAKER_01Oh well, I mean, if their if their uh publication is like outdoor-related stuff, uh it would be fun to do an article about a what do you say it was a park ranger simulator?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, it was.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly what the E side of that magazine or whatever, dude, for sure.
SPEAKER_02It would just, wait, not that I was reading an article about rookie reporter, you know, they'd be like, ah, yeah. Because it was like you had to like that was the title that I read, but then there was a subtitle that was like, I tried out a new national park ranger game. But then when it goes on to the article, like it doesn't say anything about it being a game, and I didn't read that little subtitle that said like it's a park ranger simulator. So the articles written as as if they were an actual park ranger. Like, yeah, walks through like the the storyline that they hit over. Yeah, so he was so cool. I would just say like it was just a weird experience. I mean, you know, so was I patent.
SPEAKER_01You and Walt are digging through the trenches, dude. And it's probably not too far from the truth.
SPEAKER_02But, anyways, yeah, it's probably yeah, probably is because they were like, I see this sign that's crooked, this like bathroom doors like hit hanging on the hinges. Yeah. But then I gotta call emergency call to go pick up tracking.
SPEAKER_01There's some dipshit who's 20 feet away from his backpack. Yeah. Like, I gotta stop and tell him he's a dipshit. Disgusting.
SPEAKER_02Well, so this next story, back to the original, like it's hiking season again, the PSA. Uh, we're gonna mainly focus on the southwest and and desert hiking. And this was an interesting title of an article. And I it's I'm gonna ask you guys a question about it. How many deaths in the US can be attributed to a cactus in the USA? How many official deaths by cactus in the US? In the US. Zero to 20. We'll even say the contiguous US. How many deaths?
SPEAKER_00I'll go I'll go 200. Does that include Alaska?
SPEAKER_02No, contigu uh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's not contagious. I don't think Alaska probably has any cactuses. I don't know, but I guess.
SPEAKER_02But I I could see Hawaii having any cactus. Snow cactus?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, Hawaii.
SPEAKER_02Snow cactus.
SPEAKER_01Well, are you gonna guess? Oh, okay. Uh yeah. I am gonna guess. Uh 37.
SPEAKER_02Give me an actual number, Patty.
SPEAKER_00Um, I feel like because it's a news story and because it's a PSA, it's gotta be like somewhere up there. So I'm gonna go 137.
SPEAKER_02The only death recorded in the United States is in 1982. 82. I was Patrick was three years old. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Wait a second here.
SPEAKER_00You guys are older than me. Although that's probably true. I've probably definitely got facial hair before Brad.
SPEAKER_02That is for sure. All right. So in 1982, 27-year-old David Grundman was famously crushed after a Seguro cactus fell on him. Resulting in his death. It's not the cactus. Gravity killed his leg of this. This is gonna get even crazier. Like how the cactus killed him or what why the cactus fell over. He's in America, in Arizona. Shooting it with a gun. Him and his buddy out there shooting it with a gun. And it fell and it fell on him. They're shooting it from five feet away? What the fuck is that? Well, it yeah, I mean, it was it was like one of the really old 30-something foot talls. Yeah, they're real tall.
SPEAKER_01Think about that. Think about that in Indiana. You're in a forest and there's a tree, and you're just shooting the hell out of that tree until it timbers on you and kills you.
SPEAKER_00That guy had pretty good aim until it killed him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it and just for the record, Seguro cactus are protected, and it was illegal for him to be shooting it. It didn't say exactly where, but it was in Dang, back in 82. Yeah. Crazy story. So that this whole that was kind of this whole article is about because uh getting hit by a cactus is pretty frequent when you're out in the desert. I'm I'm guessing. I don't know. I've been frequent.
SPEAKER_00I feel like the way you said it. Getting hit by a cactus is not the right way to do it.
SPEAKER_02Maybe brushing up again or like getting getting injured by a cactus. Not not a cigar falling. But there are a lot of injuries every year due to cactus. They're like stabbing. Oh, I bet. Yeah. Puncture wounds. The reason it happens the most is just straight up slipping and falling off a trail. And sometimes like you slip and fall off the trail, and you're full-on stuck in a cactus, like planted into a cactus, and you can't move. Oh, it's like the like that does happen.
SPEAKER_01The one the cacti that are spread across like the ground, they're more ground cover than they they grow out instead of up. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Dude, I've I have I have a few cactuses and cacti. Yeah. And I've accidentally like like one of them kind of fell over and just instinctively tried grabbing it with my hand. Oh my god. Because those uh little thingers just don't come. Do they have like sub go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Well, in this article, they talk about we'll get into like how to treat that when you get pricked by a cactus. And Travis said they were kind of like like the bushes kind of spread out. Like the most famous are Segora Um Segora, Prickly Pear, and Chola. And Chola's the one that's like nicknamed as the jumping cactus. Because it's so easy to pick up some of it. Like on your clothes and your legs, like you barely brush it and the and the cholo cactus like comes off under your legs. Whoa. And the prickly pear? And I think the prickly pear is one that's almost kind of bushy, like I could be. I didn't I didn't look up photos of the prickly pear. Does that have fruit? Does the prickly is because is that the fruit?
SPEAKER_00Is that where you get the fruit?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Like it's like red. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it looks like there was probably nods on it.
SPEAKER_02They're kind of like the long flat leaves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Prickly pear.
SPEAKER_01And that's just I mean, it's like the you know, the burrs and stuff you pick up when you're wandering around the woods around here. It's just a way for that plant spreads, propagate, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Darn skippy, bippy. So uh many of these grow in the like the the best southwest hiking states. Arizona um oh shoot, I have Arizona has the greatest diversity of different cactuses. Cacti? Cactuses. Because there's around 200 species in North America, and most of them are found in the Sonoran Desert in Arizona and the Chihuahuan Desert in Texas. But then Nevada, Utah, California, and New Mexico all also have most like a lot of the species of cactus. Wow. So Patrick, like you were talking, or one interesting thing I saw, like why cactuses are the way they are, is growing in the desert, you're a source of water. So you that's the way they protect themselves against animals eating them for their water. Like it's kind of a deterrent. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a deterrent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because they just absorb at like any moisture that they can get a hold of. Yeah. And they got are they considered like succulents basically? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And then they have that hard, like meaty, leathery outer shell uh that protects them from you know, evaporating that moisture and whatever's outside, and then they grow the freaking spikes and spines to protect it.
SPEAKER_02Because it is like an inner flashy, like watery.
SPEAKER_01Which is so crazy. Because that around uh especially being from the Midwest, like the only thing you really see are those little ones and little pots at stores or like aloe vera or something like that. And uh I can't I think that's why I want to go to the desert because I want to see these monsters.
SPEAKER_02I mean, cigaras can grow over 60 feet tall, yeah, or up to 60 feet. That is awesome. Yeah. So one way to protect yourself against that, there's not a lot you can do to protect yourself, but keep from falling off the trail is one. So, like knowing where you're hiking and wearing steady shoes or long pants. That's like 101. Yeah, like hiking. But it is, I mean, think like you're in Sedona, you're in your brick and stocks, you're just you're just gonna go hit up one of the uh, what do they call it? The vortexes and channel some chi. Jeez.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You've never been to uh Sedona? It's a pretty hippie place. Is it? Yeah. Oh it's all dude, it's awesome. Oh yeah, you're just gonna be able to get away. They call them they're like the vo vortexes or something, but they're spots where energy like coalesces and like congregates, so you like raises your like your aura and it's in there in Sedana. Yeah, they're all like you can find them on a map. There's like certain spots you go to. I love that. It is, even if it's fake, you you feel good when you're hanging out. Sweet, yeah. It's usually it's usually like it's amazing effect, dude. Hey, any positive vibes we can pick up, we're we're in. But it it's an it's a very interesting place. If you ever want to go there, it's super cool. We'll have to consider that, Patrick, on our desert trip. Done. Yeah. That could be the because there is a ton of hikes like out of because you're halfway between Phoenix and the Grand Canyon, like you're in that weird kind of middle area. It's it is absolutely beautiful. Like it's amazing.
SPEAKER_00I'm telling you, I'm on board. I would like to do a multi-day backpacking trip in the in the desert.
SPEAKER_02Well, so if you do get pricked, experts recommend not using fingers. Like, don't don't pull it out with your fingers. Use tweezers or pliers, because they can have those like hair kind of barbed things on them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think it's called glow kids. Are like the tiny little barbed things that can you can barely see.
SPEAKER_01That's gonna be really hard not just to pull it out right there and then go real hard.
SPEAKER_02Like, oh, just leave it till we get back. So one of the guys they talk to say like he carries a fork with them. And I was wondering if like a backpacking spork would work too. Because you're basically like I'm talking when you get a um one of those jumping ones on you, and you can that you like you you want to get under it and pull out of the barbs, like without having to grab other barbs to pull on to get it out. So if you can get some leverage underneath it, like he said he always carries a spork. Like get as close to the problem as possible. He's an exploration geologist. Travis, do you know what an exploration geologist is?
SPEAKER_01I've looked it up, so I know I'm quizzing. Is that like you just go to places that haven't been explored before and look at the rocks?
SPEAKER_02No, you're looking for oil and gas and natural resources and stuff. No, that is nowhere near as in the world. That's what I thought. They gave themselves a pretty cool test. That's just too too obvious. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Travis, I feel like the desert would be prime you. Like I get one of those cacti spines in my in my leg or whatever, and you pull out your massive med kit, and you're like, all right, dude, tweezers, check, like ointment, check Patty.
SPEAKER_01If we go together, I'll bring like a just a tank of uh anti-cactus pain medium.
SPEAKER_02You need to bring a tank of SPF 75 for me. For me too, bro. Are you kidding me? All right, in closing, so this this exploration dialogist that they interviewed for this, his name's Ian Newman. He kind of had a good quote summing it up. It's almost an embracing the suck kind of thing with cactus. He said, getting stuck by a cactus is a rite of passage for living in Arizona. I have chola in my or Yeah, I have chola at my fingertips right now. Make sure you're prepared and otherwise just respect nature. Cactus issues aren't a big thing unless you really fall and hurt yourself. We get by with just shorts and running shoes most of the time. So this is just kind of like, don't be an idiot. Like you're gonna get stuck sometimes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's what I always go. Like, that's my baseline thing about going outside. Yeah. Don't be an idiot. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He's like, sometimes you fall and hurt yourself, but sometimes it'll get you get back up, rub dirt on it, and roll out.
SPEAKER_00There's kind of before you do something here, there's kind of like a part of me that now wants to be at least get spined one time by a cacti or cactus. We could do that. Well, I don't want to do it. I just want to like add it.
SPEAKER_02You gotta put yourself, you want to be in the situation where it can happen. I feel like a frolic in the desert.
SPEAKER_00I have cholo in my veins now.
SPEAKER_02Like, he's like, well, no, he's like, I literally have some of that shit in my skin right now.
SPEAKER_00Like, that's cool, dude. I feel like that's just like having a trailer. Is it a rite of passage? That kind of sounds like it.
SPEAKER_02That's he said, yeah, he said it's a rite of passage for living in Arizona.
SPEAKER_00I'm not minimizing the plight of the Arizonian. Just get stung. I'm just saying that if I came out of that trail like I got stung, I'd be like, I got stung in Arizona. Just get bit by a rattlesnake. No, no, that is too far. Honestly, that is far more scary than because I remember Brad and I were talking one time when I was trying to convince him to do the trip before one of our other trips, and uh, he brought up the amount of insects or or stuff there, and I was like Kayak trip. Kayak trip. We were talking about that, and I was just like, oh, oh. I don't know why it never dawned on me, but it still doesn't scare me. But like, dude, snakes are not my bag. Scorpions are certainly not my bag.
SPEAKER_02It's weird as much time of I've as I've been outside the last year. I've have, I don't know, I've maybe not seen one snake. No? You think I would? Maybe it's because I'm always looking up. Yeah. Yeah. And I have come across them. I just haven't seen them.
SPEAKER_01But they're pretty like evasive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but even like a garter snake, like I haven't seen anything.
SPEAKER_01Especially in the forest, it's gonna be hard to see. Like it's easy to see them around your house because there's this weird wiggly thing moving around your grass. Yeah, moving around 90 degrees. Green angles.
SPEAKER_00Hey. Hey.
SPEAKER_02There we go.
SPEAKER_00That was good. B Rad. Thank you very much for that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Springtime PSA.
SPEAKER_00I have a new uh I have a new goal in life. Be stung by one cactus one time. Preferably it's one cactus one time. If I got stung by a Segora or War.
SPEAKER_01So are you going to be walking around like picking the cactus you want to be stung by? No, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_00I'm not going to purposely do anything. I just want to like. Oh, what's it? Oopsie poops.
SPEAKER_02I just got stung. Look at what jumped on me. It's on a jump.
SPEAKER_00Nah, dude. It's my new gold. I don't care. It's on my life list already. It's happening. We got a wonderful one. We're going back into gear, dude. It's been a long time coming. We started off as a gear podcast. We do a lot of other stuff now, but every so often we like to get back to where we kind of cut our teeth, you know, got our jibs.
SPEAKER_01It's one of those old ones that we've mentioned a hundred times on this podcast, but we've never actually talked about them. Yeah. Hammocks. Hammox. Some people don't even know that you just go hang between two entries.
SPEAKER_00Man, let's go into it. You boys ready? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All right, Jabronis. We've got a gear episode. And uh it's been a while, and it's about a subject that we've mentioned many times over the podcast. And uh it's something that I've been interested in. I've never used before on the trail. Brad, I believe, dabbled. Patrick, you're the you're the king of hammocks.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I've dabbled, Travis. Yeah, you've dabbled. Uh yeah, I I I've hammocked for quite some time.
SPEAKER_02He's been hammocking for quite some time on his recovering hammocker.
SPEAKER_00Well, I don't want to be dubbed the the king of hammocks because that's certainly not the case. But if I had a choice, and most often I tried to put myself in a position where my choice can be a hammock, then I'm gonna go with my hammock and hammock uh accessories for sure over a tent. Oh, hammock and hammock accessories. Well, uh Brad and I were talking off air, and I I think that uh definitely they're like base hammock, probably not the best way to go all the time at all, ever. Uh unless you're in your backyard with a certain kind of hammock that we'll probably get into.
SPEAKER_01I imagine most people are familiar with your backyard hammocks, the like little ropey netty thingies.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's called I believe what they would refer to as a bridge hammock or backyard hammock, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_02It is kind of funny because I was thinking about talking about those kinds of hammocks and thinking that that would be like talking about backpacking packs and then going all the way down to jan sports that you take to school. Yeah. Yeah. As I was loading this up, I kind of dare shit on the jansport, bro. They're apples and oranges, but yeah, okay. I like them both. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I've got a jan sport that has been just killing in for like 15 years. Yeah, I'm with you on that, dude.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I I think when I was looking at this, I kind of I stuck with obviously you have to mention the backyard hammock because everybody does know those, but the two main kind of That's the first thing that comes to your mind. Right, right, right. Uh are the gathered end or the bridge hammock. Those are the real two ones. More, I think specifically now, the gathered end hammocks are really just that's your Eno, you know, your wise owl, whatever brand that you can get them for 25 bucks a pop now. Are these those those are uh specifically camping hammocking I've seen you know videos of people putting them up in their in their living room or their backyard. If you have a if you have a stand for your your backyard hammock, then you could strap a gathered end on there no problem. You'd have to probably get it to where it's nice and tight, but for sure. And what a what a gathered end hammock for anybody that doesn't know, it it's where the ends are kind of bunched up. All like that that hammock was cut at a square thing, and then they kind of bunched up or gathered that hammock. And it's more of a fabric, it's not a net. No, yeah, it's more it's well, yeah, most certainly probably I would assume, unless you can buy like backyard hammocks in a gathered-end style, so it's a cloth or fabric. Yeah. But most often they're all like a nylon, almost like a parachute. I think that's what most people say that it's like exactly it's it is a parachute, just done. So can you use it? Super lightweight as a parachute if you like jumping on a tree. I'm not I don't like heights, so I'm not jumping off nothing.
SPEAKER_01But that's where the crossover happens from your backyard hammock to your backpacking hammock.
SPEAKER_00It's pretty much like the end of it, like the ends of your hammock, because what a bridge hammock is is more specifically to your backyard hammock, but I've seen a lot of setups. We saw them down at the backpacking festival last year where it has kind of that built-in exoskeleton. Oh, it's got a structure to it. Yeah, structure to it. So a gathered end hammock, the way that those kind of work is that your body weight creates the sleeping surface. Yeah. Whereas a bridge hammock, it's m it's like a surface is flat and it's already there. But, you know, in terms of backpacking, that's why I said the more like the the kind of hammock that's really catching the vibe right now, and for the last like I would say like 10 years or so, yeah, is the gathered end because you know, Eno kind of kicked it off.
SPEAKER_02You know what? Like, I'm embarrassed to say this, but until I actually got a hammock, and like you told me we'll get into the like straps and stuff here in a little bit. And I got the atlas straps, and like in my mind, I could never picture how it actually worked, like how the system hung up and like how it all worked until I did it. And for some reason in my mind, I thought the atlas strap was like you strap you strap it around one tree, string it across, go to another tree, strap it around that tree, and then somehow your hammock your hammock's hanging in the middle. That's actually a pretty sweet uh concept. Yeah, like that's what in my mind, that's what I always thought it was.
SPEAKER_00Like all the loops on the atlas strap are just like like horizontal to you in the air. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you just torque it tight. We're on hammocks, not hammock accessible. Well, I'm trying to get the picture of how these bunch hammocks are like hung. So that was a big like something I never understood until I did it myself.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I mean, to not go into the straps quite yet, the the hammock of the gathered end hammock you'll have.
SPEAKER_02And I would I would imagine a bunched end or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's okay. Well, you know what? You're you've been out there once, but you're still working on it. And it does look like a bunch, that's for sure. But at the end of that bunch, it's kind of like looped around, and that's where you have like your uh what do you call them? The cord, like the the thick rope, that's on the thick rope, like bungee cord almost. And then on that bungee cord is a monkey clip. I always call them like C clips or whatever they're called. Carabiner. Carabiner, thank you. Uh so that's so that's at the end. You know, and the bridge hammocks the same way. Just kind of one more point, too, with just the hammocks, and we'll get more into all the accessories you can get later. But one of the big things that I noticed as I was kind of researching these bridge hammocks is a lot of bridge hammocks, like the ones we saw down at uh Damascus in Damascus, was uh they're all a lot of them are like all in one. Like all of your stuff is in this hammock already, so it's not all a cart almost. A tent that's hanging from tree to tree. Suspended in the air.
SPEAKER_01Like you have your canopy and all that, and it's yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like a uh it's you gotta undo the zipper to get in and get out. Like there'd be two, like you would have the hammocks on the atlas strap. So you'd have the hammock, and then the way you do it with a rainfly or a bug net, most more of it, it's the bug net that's on on your actual unit that you buy. But then what you'll do is you'll run another cord with um with carabiners at each end, and those will tie into your atlas straps. So now you've got a canopy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's what like isn't the the war bonnet brand known more for that? Like the full setup, incorporated.
SPEAKER_00That's right. There's a there's a few a few brands that do do that, and people love that. Uh especially tenters.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's what I would rather have.
SPEAKER_00But I gotta say that like for me, especially backpacking, like I this is gonna sound stupid because of the kind of tradition I have on the podcast, but when you set up a hammock, I I I think like outside of sleeping on it, you're in your hammock like the rest of the evening or the afternoon when you're at camp. Because it's a chair at that point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like a bench.
SPEAKER_00You don't have to lay in it. I think I've read something where there's like 121 ways to lay in a gathered end hammock to be in.
SPEAKER_02When we were at your property before the kayaking trip, yeah, I was sitting in my hammock, and I I could never get comfortable sitting in it. Well like my leg, like my the bottom of my legs got sore.
SPEAKER_00And we talked about this too, and we'll get into like even the sleeping side of it. But even that day and and when we were out camping on the river, there there is kind of a learning curve. So it's not something that you're gonna jump into and this is the best thing ever. There's like there is a technique and a way that you sleep in a hammock and use a hammock so that over time you just be like now I could hop into a hammock, it'd be it's second nature. But there was a moment where I was like, God damn, like this isn't comfortable. I don't know where it's like. Oh, dude, I have my I have my setup, I know what I'm doing, but it is riding a cup over. But there is even a couple two, so I get it. But no, that's you know what I mean. Like, it's everything. So I do understand what you're saying, Brad. But at this at one point, you know, your backpack was uncomfortable until you understood how to wear a backpack and all that stuff. Your camera was uncomfortable around your neck until you got the right shit. So I would implore you to come out with me more and and hammock away.
SPEAKER_02Practice, practice your hammocking. I haven't I haven't given up on it. I'm definitely gonna try to. But I think it has to be like the perfect trip to for it to work out. Whereas like a tent works all the time. I mean, you can't plan for a perfect trip, Brad. Right. So like that's why hammocking's hard.
SPEAKER_00I don't know of a way that hammocking like even I, and that's why I wouldn't at all call myself a king, but even I get like nervous. I have all the accessories, and I still get nervous as to but I can't imagine a reason why you couldn't hammock in any environment other than one with no trees.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's the thing. I need I need to invest in all the accessories we'll talk about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm going to go I have told well, I've made a promise to myself that I'm gonna do one trip just cowboy camping. With a tarp, a small tarp, and that's it.
SPEAKER_00My uh my first time at the Pine River uh Thai van meter, who we had on had on an episode a while ago, he forgot his tent. Or yeah. He went camping and forgot his tent. And uh I let him I let him use my hammock and i cowboy camped the whole week. It was awesome, dude. Yeah, I loved it. Now I would have been SOL if it rained because I had nothing else. But dude, it was it was sweetness. Uh just one more thing, too, with in terms of like sleep system compared to the tent, because I think that's overall kind of what we want to get down to, and a little bit of that. A hammock body alone without any of the accessories could be like six to twelve ounces. That's it.
SPEAKER_01That's your base, and that's no like that's no accessories.
SPEAKER_00Cover, straps, no straps, no rain, yep, protection, no straps. That's right. And then you're also looking at like a pot like probably a softball size when your stuff sack is like brand new, not stretched out. Probably a softball size uh thing in in your pack compared to a tent that's longer, bunched up, your tent poles, all that's if you use tent poles. So I mean that's that that's intriguing right there. No, just the weight reaction is yeah, intriguing. And then it's huge. If you did have all the suspension system and all the other stuff, the numbers that I was seeing it goes up to about eight to sixteen ounces only. No, no, you're out of your ass.
SPEAKER_02That's what I was saying. You're out of your ass. Whoa. You only went up two ounces from the bare basic hammock to all the accessories. You went from six to eight ounces. Maybe there was a one there, dude.
SPEAKER_00Now you're saying that it doesn't make sense. Wait, let me look in my notes. Oh, with suspension system only. So just with like the atlas straps. That's what it is.
SPEAKER_01The way that you attach it to the pictures are your posts.
SPEAKER_02Like I have the war bonnet complete shelter system at 42 ounces and the hammock with suspension at 26 ounces.
SPEAKER_00The gathered end hammock? Yeah. No, I it's way less than that. Dang. We're all just ripping out a bunch of science facts.
SPEAKER_01Don't say we're all. Well have Brad now competing here. You guys are doing drive-by hammock science right now.
SPEAKER_00I mean, this is off Gear Lab. I do, I do respect Gear Lab, no doubt about that skis. I refer to them quite often.
SPEAKER_02I mean, those atlas straps are heavy. I mean, they're not heavy, but they're thick. They're dense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Hey, let's get into some of that then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because we keep alluding to the atlas straps. Can you explain a little bit like what atlas straps are?
SPEAKER_02So like it they are super, super handy. Like I you know, something like hanging a hammock, it can be intimidating. And oh like before, like I I didn't know how they actually worked, and so I was intimidated to hang mine up the first time. But I think I had a I so I I had a double nest. An Eno double nest. Yep. And Atlas straps. And like I had the first strap tied on and on the hammock before Patty came over and was like, hey, do you need help? Like, who am I showing you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like I was already like halfway there just on my own.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So the the strap itself, Travis, like every I would say like every six inches or like twelve inches or something along it, like the fabric has a like a piece of nylon that loops up and like sewn on both sides and it loops up and comes back down and makes a big loop. And then so those are like all along the length of it. From like one end has a hook that you hook on the uh hammock, then those loops run along the whole length of it, and then you wrap the other end around a tree and hook it through one of those loops. So like the tighter you want it, the closer your trees are together. Like you just go way up on those loops and hook it around. Just move it up six inches. It's and then you can also grab your hammock and move that up the loops. Like once you're like fine-tuning your tension on it, like you're going back and forth on both sides, like pulling the hammock up to the next loop, to the next loop.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So these are something that you buy separate to make hammock hanging a lot easier. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because the old technique, and people still use it, and they make a lot of like good rope systems for it. Uh, but it would have been like a rope system where the Atlas strap just kind of changed the game. And there's tons of companies outside of Eno, but I think they're most often called like that is the name for that style of strap.
SPEAKER_01They've hit the they hit the the market with it first.
SPEAKER_02So it is just so well, it's what's Eno stand for Eagle Nest Outfitters.
SPEAKER_00It is really cool, like the ease of it and the efficiency of it, but the other side of it is how it protects the tree. And that was, I guess, like the main premise of it.
SPEAKER_02Where because a rope of this, I was just thinking, I don't know if I explained it around the tree part right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Don't you like double wrap it around the tree? Well, like if there's two trees and it's a thinner tree, then I mean this Atlas strap is probably 40 feet long. You know, or 20 feet long, something like that. Yeah, 20 feet long. Let's say it's I have a set, I'll show you a set. Uh but so then you just kind of wrap that around the tree, and then on one end, it has one loop on the very end, and then all the way down the length of the other side of the rope, it's those ones Brad was kind of explaining. That's right. So as you loop that around the tree, if it's a super skinny tree, then you kind of just loop it a couple times to get it toiter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean? And then you can adjust your hammock all the way up and down it to make it a chair, so you can make sure you have the big V in your hammock, so now you're sitting right off the ground. And then when you go to bed, you tighten that up and you got a nice sleeping surface.
SPEAKER_01And then are you? Are we gonna talk about proper hammock hanging technique later? I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean Is that the thing? Like all along those loops that are between the hammock and the tree, then you can hang your bags. Yeah. I mean, you you it's not as tight, like it doesn't deserve the double, the double, uh, what's it called? Uh hanging lens. Yeah. Like it's not a perfect clothing line because it sags quite a bit. But you can hang stuff all along those loops, like your your pack, your whatever. That's what I do.
SPEAKER_00All my stuff when I go to bed is off the ground. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01At that point in a hammock. Put that all your burden on that poor tree, huh? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, let's get back to that.
SPEAKER_00So that so that's so that was I I guess you know, after doing a little understanding, that's actually kind of where it started. It wasn't so much of an easy, efficient suspension system, but the idea was these little ropes are not so little, but they're just that just like round, like round ropes. Round ropes, yeah, are just digging into the tree with that weight on it. Whereas these hammock straps are like an inch, inch and a half, maybe wide. And so it's more surface, so less tension on that tree. And it's almost like a toe strap. Yeah, I'll give yes, uh yeah, for sure. So it's also better for the tree that you're actually hanging on, less uh less abrasive. Yeah, it's like when you're tying a tourniquet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You don't want to use like a wire. Yeah, it's gonna damage all this, yeah. Everything around it.
SPEAKER_00You want to use something, you know, the right. Just to keep it like baseline still with just the hammocks and whether or not to choose to take a hammock. Like if you're already in the boat where you're not sleeping well in a tent, you want a different kind of experience when you're out there underneath the stars on some nights without anything around you. Uh, there is, I mean, just a lot of benefits to be you're suspended off the ground. So if you have bad back or you're just muscled, you're tired. Um, to be able to be off the ground in that shoe, yeah, and that little breeze, too. Any hammocker will tell you that any breeze out there just kind of sways you back and forth. Uh so you uh all night long are being rocked back and forth.
SPEAKER_02And that was my my one and only bad experience with hammocks, the one experience I've ever had that was bad, was it was like windy. We were on a reservoir kind of place, yep, and it was windy all day, like when we were kayaking, and then we got it was a little island in the middle of this reservoir in Michigan, and that was the one night, like I brought my hammock, and I was like, one of these nights, I'm gonna pull it out and use it. This night's windy, it's on an island, so mosquitoes probably aren't gonna be that bad, and there were no mosquitoes around. But as soon as the sun dropped, the wind just died, and mosquitoes were out like crazy. So all you can hear in the hammock was the sound of mosquitoes in your ear, basically, and then you'd get bit through the bottom of the hammock.
SPEAKER_00But dude, you I just heard them pinging off my off my hammock.
SPEAKER_01Dude, it was crazy. You'd hear them like poking over your friends?
SPEAKER_03I only watch that in a 10.
SPEAKER_00The hammock I'm straight to bed, baby.
SPEAKER_02Like you could hear them trying to like poking your hammock. Yeah. Like trying to they back, zoop, zoom, like hitting it. And then finally they'd make it through and you'd feel it in your bath. Oh, they'd give her hell and they wouldn't. I got up in the middle of the night and sat my tent up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And sucked in my tent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Because it was that bad.
SPEAKER_00Since we're talking about the mosquitoes, I guess this would be a good time to segue into hammocking accessories, then, right? Because the one accessory that I could think of that would have saved Brad's back and ass, which would would have been the uh bug net. Oh, bug net. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I feel like I feel like Atlas straps aren't a accessory. I feel like they're if you're going to get a hammock, you should put the atlas straps. It's like getting tent poles with a tent.
SPEAKER_00Especially now anymore, where Eno used to, or is still like I believe an $85 hammock, something like that. So if you're going to spend the $85 for an Eno, you should or any bridge hammock for that matter, you should spend the $30 for the Atlas straps and make your setup. I mean, you're talking ones of minutes. So what are these before you're all set up?
SPEAKER_01Hammock makers doing.
SPEAKER_02Do they not make their own ways to I think there are I've seen similar ones to Atlas straps? Like the same concept.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I have like three separate pairs of those. Name brand right now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, or the the Eno is like the first brand ever, but I believe that Atlas straps, that proprietary, whatever the shit, that is uh it's Atlas straps no matter who makes. Like that's it's not Eno Atlas straps, it's Atlas straps. Eno makes those. You know what I mean? Whatever the like even if it was Wise Owl, it would be Wise Owl Atlas Straps, which Wise Owl is just a hammock brand. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Well, that was X and Line, you just threw a Z in my hand. It's like Chevy, you can have a Chevy with Goodyears, you got a Ford with Goodyears. Exactly. You can get a car with and the Goodyears are the Atlas. Exactly, yes.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know we had to use an automotive thing. That made sense, right?
SPEAKER_01That did make sense. That makes sense to me. They're just a third-party accessories.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. But they're the accessory. Like you gotta get these like you need tires.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02So bug nets, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, but bug nets also they don't keep you from getting bit in the back, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. They do. Or is that a quote? So, so one of the the interesting parts to me uh about those bridge hammocks where I was alluding to, and you can get uh gathered end hammocks that are all in one, is that or I guess they're all this way. No, okay, let me retract that statement. Bug nets hang lower than your hammock.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So it's one big net that's suspended about two, three, four feet above your hammock from another strap that you then connect to where your straps, where your atlas straps are around the tree. Yeah, those straps go there because your hammock then bows, giving you that you know what I'm you know what I'm saying, just by nature of the setup. And then that that net that bug net will just hang down below your hammock. But it's open on the bottom. No, no, it's uh it's like a like a door you walk, you climb into.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it surrounds your entire hammock? Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_00So it works perfect.
SPEAKER_01Uh the bottom's open, but it hangs all the way down to the floor.
SPEAKER_00No, when you use a bug net, like the ends are open. So you you slip it. It's a tube. So then you put your hammock through it, okay, and then you suspend it, and now it's hanging below your tube. So you have full coverage.
SPEAKER_01Before you hang it, you put the tube over it. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like a little bug condom. That's why that's why to me it's not. I mean, I Brad doesn't like to sit in his yet, but when you're sitting in your hammock and you have that bug net, it's it's just like it's especially when you're getting the deep V or the U on your hammock, so you're sitting down in it, that bug net's really weird. And to be able to have to every time you're in your hammock to unzip the thing, get in there. So that's why I'm a la carte to make it better.
SPEAKER_02But it could also be really nice if it's super buggy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but if it's super if you're if it's super buggy, then you use the a la carte bug net that you buy for 20 bucks and you put your bug net on. Yeah, as opposed to when it's not super buggy.
SPEAKER_01And it probably weighs nothing, the bug net. Yeah, I I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Gear lab money.02 ounces. Yeah, that's for sure. But super, super duper beneficial. I I used mine down only one time I've used my bug net, like on a trip, and it was down in Chattahoochee, Tennessee. Uh way down yonder. Big South Fork, Tennessee. I was on the Chattahoochee River, Big South Fork, Tennessee. We were doing a backpacking trip, and I used it there, and those dudes slept in a hammock. They woke up a bit like a mother trucker. I woke up, no bites. You son of a bitch. Take that to the bank, homie, bro. You know what I mean? Tuckers. Hallelujah.
SPEAKER_01So you guys get the full gist of the accessory or of the bugnet at least then? Yeah, the bugnet. And then what's next? The tarp, the what the rainfly? You go rain fly for sure. Tell me a little bit about that. Okay. For $5.99 a month. How good is it?
SPEAKER_00I won't give name brands and I won't give reviews. I'm not a reviewer. I don't want to be a reviewer. You can't make me review.
SPEAKER_02Well, you sure are sucking Atlas straps, dude.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but Atlas strap is not a brand. That's what I'm saying. I got uncomfortable. No, yeah, it is. Atlas strap is the name of the strap. So you're still not getting it. No, it's a name brand. No. Atlas strap, like if I bought Wise Owl product, it's my understanding, and I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that Wise Owl would also make Atlas straps. And then Eno makes Atlas straps.
SPEAKER_01Um we just talked for 45 minutes.
SPEAKER_02So my analogy wasn't correct. Well, it made sense to me. The tires were the Atlas straps in that analogy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Now you guys get it. So Atlas straps is the design of the straps, okay? No, that's the design of the straight strap. There you go. It's like the boxers.
SPEAKER_01Multiple companies make style straps. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yes. That's why I found it so intriguing that hammock companies weren't making their own damn straps to hang their hammocks in.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's like anything, dude, until somebody comes up with the evolution. It's been rope the whole time.
SPEAKER_02I'm glad that an hour in we finally put these into the book.
SPEAKER_01I tell you what, rope is a technology that's really held on for a long time. Yeah. Fuck yeah. Yeah, I just bought a new book on a fresh book.
SPEAKER_02It came with a rope, dude. It came with a rope. And it said how to tie a noose. No, I'm just it was the anarchist cookbook. We had the quilt. The quilt's probably like one of the most important. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But before we do get the quilt to the quilt, I do I do appreciate the rainfly because that is important, right? I mean, that is your shelter. They make what I just really quick, because I don't, I think it's pretty self-explanatory. You could take a fucking tarp out there and put it over your bug net or do the same setup with that's how a generally a rainfly would come. Yeah, yeah. And then you guy line it down. And it you can get ones that are shorter on one end to kind of you're building like a lean to almost. You can get and you could do that with an overall rainfly. You can do it however you want. So it's pretty, pretty simplistic. But I will say, sleeping under a rain fly, and I woke up, I did one in the middle, I think it was January or February. We were up at our property in Michigan, and I woke up and it was snowing, or it's been snowed for a long time. It done bids. It done been snowed, dude. And it was awesome. And I've been out there in thunderstorms, uh rainstorms, and it is really cool.
SPEAKER_02I feel like if you had a rainfall, you say it snowed four feet, five feet, you can almost be like buried under that shit.
SPEAKER_01Well, you gotta angle it so that shit falls off.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, but if it snows like three or four feet, you could. I get it, yeah. You're like you may not be able to see daylight around you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that'd be fun. So, but now we'll get into the quilt because you're bringing up the cold weather. Yeah. Uh that uh quilts, quilts are another one of those things that you just almost kind of gotta get. If you keep hammocking and want to do it, especially on backpacking trips, your next purchase after getting your kind of core setup there.
SPEAKER_02I feel like everything we've covered, uh for me would be a necessity. Uh bug, yeah, bug thing, the hammock itself, the bug net, the atlas straps, uh, atlas straps. No matter which brand makes it, which are not proprietary.
SPEAKER_03And a rain fly of some sort.
SPEAKER_02In a quilt, which is that's specifically not proprietary.
SPEAKER_00So uh the the quilt is the quilt is fucking awesome. I have two quilts. I have one that's thicker for colder temperature, I believe it's down to zero. And then I have another quilt that's I think rated for like 25 or 35. That's more like springtime.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And what exactly is a quilt?
SPEAKER_02What is it so what a what a go ahead. This was another one that I like was very confused about and did not understand how it worked because I thought like you know how I've talked about my Zen Bivi quilt. That's like my sleeping bag quilt. And everything I've read online said that like one of the main things that's cool about that is you're not the the part of a sleeping bag that you're laying on and you're smashing that insulation so it has no warming properties. So I kept thinking, like, what's the point of a quilt in a hammock because you're laying on it and like you're smashing it and it's not keeping you warm.
SPEAKER_01That's what I was thinking too, because I always I was thinking it was like you just you're basically putting a blanket underneath of the hammock.
SPEAKER_02But what you're doing is gonna get to it. You're hanging it basically on the outside of the quilt. Underneath you. Underneath it's like uh like the quilt's part of you inside of a sleeping bag. Yeah, yeah. And that makes it sound way more comfortable. So it's hanging on the bottom of the hammock.
SPEAKER_00Toit. Yeah. Toy. Actually, it's not necessarily toy. It's just it it can it just hangs off it. You can definitely get it, toy, no doubt about it. The toitier, the warmer, I would imagine. I actually would disagree.
SPEAKER_02But not smushing, not too, not too tight.
SPEAKER_00I don't think so. What they call it is cold butt syndrome. That's what they call. And I swear to Christ, if you spend any longer than seemingly one day in a in a hammock, you will experience this.
SPEAKER_02Have you ever had CBS in your tent, Travis? In my yes, I have. I guess I I've had cold body syndromes.
SPEAKER_00I've had everything you gotta think that when you're suspended maybe three, four feet off the ground, five feet off the ground. And when I talked about that breeze earlier, no matter if that breeze is in the dead of summer, spring, fall, or winter, that breeze over time, sometimes quicker, sometimes slower, gets cold everywhere.
SPEAKER_0260 degrees can get cold.
SPEAKER_0070 degrees can get. And that breeze that's rocking you to sleep feels really good at the at the beginning of your night. After a couple hours, the sun goes down. Sun goes down, that breeze becomes your worst nightmare because your butt gets so cold. Your feet sometimes, or your calves, your thighs, your back gets freezing. So what that quilt does is right where you connect you um those monkey clips or carabiners that connect to your atlas straps, at that junction, that's where a quilt goes on. You snap, you it comes with carabiners, the carabiner in, carabiner in, and then now you have uh, depending on the kind of quilt you buy, you have a barrier between your butt and that wind, that breeze or whatever it might be. Yeah. And that's what keeps you so warm.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's why, like if you think about it, because you know how in the winter time here in Indiana, when it's um there's rain, but it's almost freezing, but you go over like an overpass, and uh you always gotta watch out because that those overpasses can get icy because that air flowing underneath it is cooling from below as well as above. And that's exactly what's happening when you're hanging in that hammock. Yeah. Like you're getting cold air above and butt size first. But do you ever sleep uh front down in your hammock? And get uh that would change my saying. Cold P syndrome.
SPEAKER_00I have been in that uh I C P S? I went so it's a fun story. Scary story. Uh our friend that passed away, Dave, uh, our beloved Kirsten's father. We he him and I went down to Red River Gorge, and this was probably like my third time backpacking, maybe, maybe not, maybe my second time. And that shortly before that trip, I was introduced to hammock, to Eno specifically, hammocks, and that's when I bought my hammock. Also, by the way, that's how long I've had my hammock, and it's still rocking and rolling. That's when I also bought my Eno straps. 43 years it wasn't 43 years ago, dickhead. You guys are older than me. These shitheads. But so I went down there, dude, and I had this. I had no accessories. I did not have a quilt, I had nothing. We were at the bottom of the gorge. It got so farting cold in that hammock. I mean, it is potentially deadly being in a hammock with nothing, right? I contemplated peeing on myself for like 10 minutes just to feel the glory of warmth before I froze to death. And then it would disappear and make you colder. Colder than before, dude. Now I got pee ice on me. Dude, but it yeah, it's just, it's just, it's just miserable. That quilt is fantastic. I've been, I've been, I think the coldest that I got down to hammocking was like 10 or 15. Anywhere between 10 and 15 degrees, I was hammocking. And I think that might have been the snow night as well. Just to wrap that up. But you cannot ask for a better thing. And you think that a quilt is gonna be for like more colder temperatures.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you you could certainly use a quilt even in the dead of summer.
SPEAKER_01Even like those like chilly nights, I imagine. Because I uh I remember Kirsten, she had her hammock and she didn't have a quilt on it. And I remember she was just like, I I damn cold enough.
SPEAKER_00I'm not trying to call our beloved out by any means, but I imagine that the one of the factors that played into her uh being so eager to walk down the mountain with you outside of just trying to help you live your life, is she probably froze her ass off in that hammock. Like that is a that's a rough go. But you know what? She didn't complain, she didn't suck, and she kept on trucking. And I imagine she would have probably beat our asses down that trail if she was given an opportunity.
SPEAKER_01So after quilts on a So you've got your system now with your just that basic hammock. You've got your um mosquito atlas straps. Yep, your mosquito net, your non-proprietary atlas straps, your That's what they're forever going to be called. Your fly or your rain fly, which could be anything you dig out of the garage. Six-foot tarp and yeah, it could be. And then to keep your to get to prevent CBS, uh, get you a quilt. Under quilt.
SPEAKER_00Specifically, they're called under quilts. Under quilts. Oh okay. So it's you're not buying a quilt, and that's where probably the confusion comes from.
SPEAKER_02That under does a lot of work on that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it does. It holds a lot of the weight there. Uh when you're when you're looking for those, you would want to search under quilt. And there's a lot of great brands. I I will say, because of the necessity for an underquilt, uh, they are probably like I would imagine probably anywhere between the $80 to $120 range.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that was for me when it got to like pricing out. Because I would, like I said, I would get all of these accessories if I were to do hammocking. Yeah. And that was the one where I jumped to where I was thinking, shit, that's as much as my like big Agnes. Right. That's what I was thinking.
SPEAKER_01When you when you add all of this nice, you know, including the luxury stuff, how much does that cost compared to a nice luxury can be a little bit more than ultralight?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say it's about the same. It's more of a lifestyle choice. I would agree. You know, I I guess I might I I would I don't know, because you're saying it like your favorite influencers. Hey, bro, it's more of a lifestyle choice. But I definitely think I certainly think it's a choice. Like it's a choice to do hammocking. I want to get it. I want to give it a shot for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm still intrigued by it. It's my step be between tent and cowboy.
SPEAKER_00I've never really talked with anybody other than Brad, and I I've always said that Brad would, if soon as Brad learns to hammock and has that great night, it's on from there. Yeah. Because Brad being Brad's gonna end up figuring it out, and then he's it's gonna be like, okay, tents suck. I've gotta learn how to hammock like this. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because tents do suck compared to hammocks. There's almost no doubt about it. I wouldn't say that, but it's pretty luxurious.
SPEAKER_01But I also have to carry the weight of it. But it depends on the situation. If you go inside, your hammock's not gonna do you very good in Arizona. No. You know, so you get high elevation or high elevation. Or high elevation. So yeah, you gotta consider that too. You can't just, you know, it's not that black and white.
SPEAKER_00Before, because I know Brad and I have had some opinions off air, and I'm sure you have your opinions, but before I kind of get into that, I just I have the word kind of funny in my notes because to me, there has been uh like a huge escalation of uh hammockers in all around the world, right? Like in in this kind of culture where it has taken off since Eno came out and some of those older OG brands have come out. It's taken this sleep system idea to another level. Yeah. In terms of how you can actually be out in the backcountry camping with your family, whatever, and how you sleep.
SPEAKER_01I do feel like over the last what decade or two, like camping technology has just skyrocketed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and we're talking specifically hammocks or like. Oh, everything, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I never I didn't consider hammocks because I didn't think of it as like a shelter. Yeah, as a shelter. Um I just I never I didn't think I didn't know about the accessories that could come with it and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00So would you guys would you say that a tent is better than a hammock because of the accessibility in any climate? Is that why you because I I would I would I would I would fold on that hard.
SPEAKER_01The versatility of a tent is definitely uh wider for sure.
SPEAKER_02Well, like yeah, because some of the things I also didn't like about my time in the hammock was nothing everything got everything that I tried keeping near me got lost. Like either underneath me, somewhere along the way, and the pouch was hard to get to, which I imagine that gets easier to figure out.
SPEAKER_01I can only imagine like how pissed off I would get in the middle of the night trying to find my shoe-tin that fucking rolled around somewhere.
SPEAKER_02Even like even like a water bottle or like something simple, like my chapstick.
SPEAKER_00So I believe they if if if you ever went down this route of needing to have those things, I believe that there's kind of like an outlier accessory that's going around or has been going around. I have never really looked in because I don't have that sort of problem. Most everything that I have goes into that that um where where your actual hammock pulls out of issue.
SPEAKER_02And I think that was even like that kept dumping on me too, like when I would get in and out.
SPEAKER_00Well, a great little technique with that is especially during colder climates when you do have a quilt on, you put weight in that bag, and then that bag is kind of like a latch. So you can you can toss that bag over to the other side. Of you, depending on which side you want it or that bag's on, and then now you're sleeping that quilt will come over, and now you're sleeping in a fully enclosed hammock, which is another way people end up getting rid of their mosquito or bug problem as well. Yeah. So, but I mean, just imagine that on a cold night up there, two trees swaying back and forth in the middle of a canoe or a cocoon. Like, come on, dude.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I'd be fine. I can adapt to sleeping anywhere, anyhow. But yeah, that's one way that I want to try. Because tent sleeping is kind of honestly getting boring to me. That's why I've been I honestly might just go straight to cowboy camping.
SPEAKER_00Have you uh have you so there's an outsider magazine article? This is from years ago. I mean, I would probably say like eight years ago, where this guy, this uh, this uh journalist wrote this huge spread.
SPEAKER_021981 came out.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no. When the fuck did this start? Is it because my beard is gray and more? This is bull titties, dude. I don't like this. But this guy wrote this really great article about how he was convinced to go cowboy camping. And I he wasn't in the desert. I can't remember where he was, yeah, but he was convinced to do it, and then that like he will never go back to either hammocks or back or tenting. And he he wrote how he went through the transition of tenting his whole life because this is the way you're taught, and then moving into hammocks when that was popular, uh, when hitting its like peak growth. It's like the exactly the where I'm so there there's a really I don't know what year or whatever. I would guess like five years.
SPEAKER_02Before the rise of hammocks.
SPEAKER_00Is this the second coming of hammocks? This no, because I still I think hammocks have kind of like plateaued. So now like the people that so you know it it's kind of because at all kinds of brands do it. All you know, it's just this thing. But then but then what happened after that is then you started seeing tents get better. So there's there's a lot of people argue about the idea that hammocks push tents to go in another direction. And now you see the ultralight tents, the trekking pole tents, and I were talking.
SPEAKER_01We were making jokes earlier about the like the behind the scenes battle between tent technology and hammock technology.
SPEAKER_00That I mean that some people, there's some articles about that that I've read throughout the year. Makes sense. That they just keep going.
SPEAKER_02Was that written by were those written by big capitalists? Yeah. From what article from the hammocking industry?
SPEAKER_03Is this whole episode just hammock propaganda?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm getting paid. You guys will get a cut later. Oh, okay. We're cool. And hammocks are great.
SPEAKER_02Capitalist is the best. They've made us give us the best hammock.
SPEAKER_01If you don't have a hammock, you're a loser.
SPEAKER_00What other arguments? I'm curious because at the end of this, I think our listeners would probably be just like, well, okay, then what direction to go? And I still want to understand, I want to know which argument you have for hammocks that I can't defend in just the simple statement of give yourself three times of being in a hammock, and then you'll get better. Give yourself two more accessories, and then you'll have it locked in.
SPEAKER_02Where's my two water bottles gonna go, though? In the middle of the night.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so that's what I was gonna say is that we need two water bottles at night. So there's some people so on the end times you have to piss.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's your backup water bottle for your breakfast in the morning.
SPEAKER_00But that's just being amazing. But you're not the only one to think of this because I do believe that there's an accessory right now where because what you end up having when you're in like a single nest, sometimes a double nest, but most often the double nest kind of rolls over you because there's it's wide, it's it's double the wide, which is always recommended. Like I do not recommend a single nest to anybody that doesn't like sleeping like a vampire.
SPEAKER_01Can you explain that to me? The nesting, just wider two person, one person. Yep, exactly. How do two people sleep in?
SPEAKER_00I don't think you actually can. No. Uh you can. I'm sure you can. Ashley and I have laid in my because it's you'll like I said, there's 121 ways that people have laid in hammocks, or you didn't know.
SPEAKER_02That dude was definitely wearing touchdowns. No way it was a woman. You guys are just being dumb.
SPEAKER_01Only a guy would be dumb enough to count 121 ways to sleep in a hammock.
SPEAKER_02No, I I will say, like, that's the the one one of the perks about kayaking is it's a perfect time to bring both.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02Like, that's what like the next one I'll we go on this year. I probably am gonna look into a bug net and try to up my hammock game.
SPEAKER_00If you want to just try them, I think we have like two or three or four here. Nice. Do they smell like farts or anything? No, they're bug nets. There's like nothing. I've only used my bug net one time. Fuck it. I'm cowboy camping. Yeah. I'm skipping hammock. Uh dude, if you had the weather that we had the whole time, you wouldn't.
SPEAKER_01If the weather's good, you'd be cowboying. If it's not, I will carry a little softball size hammock with me. Well, that's not gonna help. That's not gonna help you from the weather at all. It's just gonna put you closer to the weather. I said I was gonna bring a tarp. Okay, there you go. That's essential.
SPEAKER_00You have to bring what other cowboy can't do. That's shelter. That's essential. So I I keep trying to get to it and I keep forgetting, but do you know so they make these little the hammock kind of comes up, right? You're laying down there. So I've seen different products where people are trying to use that space for more hanging, divide your your gear and that stuff, and have it right next to you. So I believe there are companies that are doing something about that, but then if if people wanted to de if were more into DIYing than I am, I see a lot of people taking those and kind of riveting holes every 12 inches down the ends of their hammocks, and then they can just carabiner right onto those anything that they have inside their hammock or want to hang outside of their hammock as well. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's definitely way like you're gonna lose some luxuries that a tent offers, but you're gonna gain, you know, luxuries that a tent doesn't offer. What are you?
SPEAKER_02What are you gaining?
SPEAKER_01Well, you're you can get a lower weight, but pack packability. I don't know if it's that much lower weight. Packability's way better than packability for sure.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. Once you add the quilt and the rainfly and the bug net, I don't know that it is.
SPEAKER_01Well, depends on your situation.
SPEAKER_00That's that I I I would agree with it pains me to say this, but I would agree with Brad more on that, where I think in terms of packability or or weight, I think you would end up seeing with all the accessories included, you would see probably the same, if not more, on the hammock and all the accessories. With I'm talking rainfly, bug net, straps, hammock, all that stuff. But once again, I never take my bug net. I'm only pulling my I'm gonna take a rain fly if the weather looks absolutely, absolutely miserable. And and the weight, I don't know. I just think that you'd probably be like equal on that.
SPEAKER_01I could see it being a push. If you have a quilt, do you necessarily need a bug net?
SPEAKER_00Uh some people don't. I don't know. I've I if I knew that I like if we were going to Isle Royale and I know the mosquitoes are terrible, I'm not fucking with it whatsoever. But I know people that use their quilt as a barrier.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like I feel like the bulk of my bites were like my back was like tore up from laying on my back in the hammock. Rather than overall rough trips. But my front, like I didn't get bit on the front, it was just my back. Right, yeah. Like through my shirt, through the hammock.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, I I feel like I we choose very good times to take our trips. Yeah. So it's usually in late thought. Late fall.
SPEAKER_02Late fall, early spring, so there's no, you know, it bug freaking whatever, or there's no bug problems out, but and it's too late in the year where there's not families and kids. It's not too hot. There's a bunch of thought that goes into this. You can really dial in yourself. But bugs is a like a top three we yeah, like when can we go when there's not bugs? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But when we go, when we tend to do our trips, I'm not so worried about the flyers as much as the bugs that are crawling on the ground, like spiders and stuff. So uh a uh a hammock without you know, mosquito protection would probably be just fine in you know early spring, late fall, and you're not gonna have any problems. All you gotta do is protect yourself from the cold and the wet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I think one of the most beneficial things you're getting from choosing to go hammocking is the suspension.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think we're we're missing that part of this conversation is that you're not laying on the ground. Yeah. And if you're getting older, if you're walking miles, I'm talking miles, you know, it is it is unbelievably beneficial to have your body suspended off the ground.
SPEAKER_01Right. And that's another thing that I don't think we've really like established like a level of importance to is like your sleep situation. Yeah. Because you're not bringing your you don't have a sleeping pad. You can, you can bring a sleeping pad. You can, you can bring one, but you don't have to worry about like your terrain, uh, all that kind of like finding flat ground. Finding a flat ground. Like because you can ruin an entire night of sleep by just not like you're the ground you put your freaking tent on just isn't quite right.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01It's it's it's a deal, dude.
SPEAKER_02I look forward to getting you guys the name of the campsite. It was the third one on our uh Manister River trip. Yeah, I couldn't find the right spot. Some bitch.
SPEAKER_00Hey, that's okay. We made it though, bro. And we just made it through this episode. We finally dove as far as we could dive into hammocks, and I was excited to have that for us. I honestly didn't think we could make it that far with hammocks. I know.
SPEAKER_01I know there's way more to it than I thought.
SPEAKER_00And there's still probably way more that we didn't cover.
SPEAKER_02And it's no big whoops, and it's just getting better and better.
SPEAKER_01That's right, dude. As I said before, we're not experts, but we're into this shit and we love it. Yeah, and we know how to get started because we've been through it.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna be curious to get you guys out there with me. With the hammock and hammocking. My property would be like prime go for it. We'll get up there. We'll get up there. Let's do it. All right. Let's go up to the property right the fuck now. Are we taking the super? Yes! Start it up.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That's the RV. Let's take the RV. Let's take the RV. In case the buttons are too bad. Right. And we know what to sleep in the hammock.
SPEAKER_00I'll see you guys later.
SPEAKER_01Bye bye. All right. Thanks for listening, everybody. Keep on stuntering. See ya.
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